Oct 29, 2025
New @greenpillnet pod out today!
Kevin talks with Akseli Virtanen, co-founder of the Economic Space
Agency (ECSA), along with co-authors Dick Bryan and Jorge Lopez,
about their groundbreaking book Protocols for Post-Capitalist
Expression.
They explore how capital is itself a protocol, how post-capitalism can emerge through new economic grammars, and why distributed finance and programmable accounting could redefine value beyond markets and the state.
If you’ve ever wondered how economics, coordination, and code might come together to create new forms of collective value, this episode is for you.
🌐 Links
https://greenpill.network/
https://economicspace.agency
📘 Protocols for Post-Capitalist Expression (Book)
https://postcapitalist.agency/#
🐦
@owocki
@greenpillnet
@econaut6
🌐 Timestamps
00:00 – Intro: Welcome to the new Greenpill season — exploring
tech, coordination & Protopia
00:40 – Introducing guest Akseli Virtanen and co-authors Dick Bryan
& Jorge Lopez
02:00 – What is Protocols for Post-Capitalist Expression about?
03:20 – Computational networks as new economic media
04:00 – The problem: today’s systems run on outdated economic
logic
05:10 – Why we need new economic languages to express ecological
and social value
06:20 – Viewing the economy as a networking protocol
07:00 – Capital as a coordination protocol, not a natural law
08:40 – How protocol politics define power and participation
09:40 – Why political change must happen at the level of
infrastructure
11:20 – Understanding capital as an accounting protocol
12:10 – The interdisciplinary process of co-authoring the book
13:30 – Why protocols are the new unit of economic intervention
14:50 – How distributed protocols can re-engineer value systems
16:00 – Multiple logics of measurement: beyond price and profit
17:40 – How new metrics of “use value” redefine what counts as
surplus
19:20 – Defining post-capitalism: new grammars for value
creation
20:00 – Living “in the spread” between capitalism and
post-capitalism
21:30 – The shift from exchange value to use value
23:00 – Distributed economic agency: moving power to the network
edge
25:30 – Defining the Economic Space Agency — what it means to
co-author economies
27:30 – Surplus logic: from profit to utility
29:00 – Designing programmable economic spaces for collective
value
30:50 – How post-capitalism can interoperate with existing
markets
33:10 – Why public goods need new accounting categories
35:00 – Coordination beyond the state: self-sustaining networks of
value
37:00 – The liquidity problem: bootstrapping new economic
systems
38:30 – Designing a bridge between capital and post-capital
40:20 – Respecting both systems’ internal logics for sustainable
coexistence
42:30 – Innovation: the bridge as a design breakthrough
44:00 – Formalizing economics in programmable code
45:40 – How distributed systems expand what’s economically
possible
47:30 – How to get involved: joining ECSA's newsletter & Economic
Media Lab
48:30 – Final reflections: multiple metrics of value and economic
imagination
49:10 – Closing remarks: keep building, experimenting, and
coordinating