Aug 31, 2023
Check out this month’s timely podcast with film composer and creator, Carlo Siliotto. We talk about co-creation; the music supporting the storyline.
The Writers Guild of America strike that began on May 2, 2023 continues as of the date of the release of this podcast.
You can listen into Carlo’s soundbites on AI in the creative process, the economics of residuals and governance as a committee member of the Academy of Motion Pictures Arts and Sciences.
Carlo Siliotto is a Golden Globe nominated Film composer. Since 1984 he has written music for over a hundred projects, ranging from theatrical features to documentaries and television series. Carlo is a prolific composer of concert music.. Carlo currently lives and works in Los Angeles, California.
See you in the Founders Sandbox!
Transcription:
00:04
Welcome back to the Founder's Sandbox. I am Brenda McCabe. I own
and operate a consulting firm, NextAct Advisors, where I have a
simple mission. I like to assist entrepreneurs and
entrepreneurs.
00:33
in building scalable, resilient, and well-governed businesses. The
Founders Sandbox podcast is just an additional channel to feature
founders, business owners, creators, corporate directors, and
professional service firms who, like me, want to use the power of
the private enterprise, small, medium, and large to create change
for a better world.
01:02
Through storytelling with a guest on topics that include
resilience, sustainable growth, and purpose-driven corporations or
enterprises, my goal is to provide a fun environment to help each
founder, one founder at a time, to build a better world through
great corporate governance and creativity. Today, my guest is
Carlos Idioto.
01:33
Carla and I are going to talk about resilience, the creator
economy, co-creation with music supporting the storyline. So thank
you, Carlo, for joining me in the Founder's Sandbox today. Thank
you. So Carlo, among many things, is a Golden Globe nominated film
composer. Since 1984, he has written music for over 100
projects.
02:02
ranging from theatrical features to documentaries and television
series. Carlo is a prolific composer of concert music as well.
Carlo currently lives and resides in Los Angeles where we met years
ago. And he is a proud member of the Academy of Motion Pictures,
Arts and Sciences. So thank you again for joining me in the
Founder's Sandbox today. You're very welcome. Thank you for having
me.
02:32
Harlow, you and I met during the pandemic and the peak. Your score
and the documentary, Kassak produced by Oliver Stone, were both
nominated for several awards, including the Asian Film Festival. I
think it's really timely that you've agreed to be a guest on the
Founder's Sandbox podcast, because we are living currently a
writer's stride.
03:02
Right? The AMPTPs share of the residuals. There's a lot of
discussion about the chat GBT, how it's affecting the creator
economy. I think it's really timely that you agreed to speak to me
here in the founder sandbox. So I would like you to start going
back many, many years. Where did it all begin? You know, you and
I've talked about your childhood in Italy.
03:32
and how I think it was at the age of six, you picked up your first
violin. So how did it start? No, it started, I guess between six,
seven and 10, something in that area. When my mother took me to a
big art festival in the central Italy, in Spoleto, Umbria,
03:59
called the Two Worlds Festival, the Festival di Duemondi. This was
a few hours from Rome. My mother would drive a little compact car
and the concert she took me to was the Black Nativity performed by
a band, a group of singers called the Voices of East Harlem. And it
was the first time in my life
04:29
when I saw black people. I'd never seen black people in Italy at
that time, you know, never ever. We arrived there, the main tenor,
the principal voice of the group was a blind man, a big man,
wearing a white robe, and they would perform the black nativity.
So...
04:57
Oh, and I still remember some of the melodies because I got to get
a record in that time. So I still remember some. So by the way, the
concert, the end of the concert was like this. All the people on
top of their own seats in this Baroque theater, clapping hands on
time or rhythm with them. And it was kind of an epiphany to me, you
know?
05:26
And on my way back to Rome in the car of my mother, she asked me,
what you want for Christmas? You want a guitar or a bike? And I
said, I want a guitar, I want a guitar. And this is how it started
really. And so gospel music really dragged me to the music in
general, you know, and still there. Yeah. And this is the very
beginning, the unction.
05:54
You know, like, yeah. And it's interesting, it was actually a
performance, right? With music as well as acting, right? And the
Black nativity, correct? Yeah, but it was no acting. It was just
music, but they were so beautiful to see while performing. And
everything took place in a big baroque theater.
06:21
Marvelous Baroque theater, the theater Caio Melissa in Spoleto. And
so it was all a big trip, actually. It was, yeah. And I know later
on in your early, I guess, 20s, you formed a band and you would
tour through Europe. And actually you had a specific tour in
Africa. Yes.
06:50
We formed this band in the early 70s, which band was supposed to
create new kind of sound by using the roots of the Italian South
and Fork music, and create by studying it and by reproducing it a
new sound, which we did actually.
07:18
We were one of the first bands in Europe of what they today would
call world music. As far as I know, we were only two bands in
Europe. One was our band and the other one was Alain Stivell in
France, in Brittany.
07:46
In the late 70s, we have been invited to tour five countries of
recent independency, Somalia, Tanzania, Mozambique, Zambia and
Kenya. And before the tour started, I asked to our foreign
ministry, because we were kind of a tribute to them, to the new
democracy of these countries. I asked them to be able to have a
twin
08:16
band in each country. So to perform together with and to rehearse
together. So for us to learn about African music and for them to
learn a little bit about our music and then perform together. And
this was, and after the tour, actually I had the chance to be
invited to teach music in Somalia. So I spent
08:44
many, many months in Somalia teaching composition because they
needed Italian speaking teachers. Somalia used to be a colony of
Italy and they had only North Korean teachers and they would teach
music just saying ta ta ta and they know it's ta ta ta, know it's
ta ta ta because they had no common language, no common way to
speak.
09:13
except music. But so the musicians, when we first toured Somalia,
they asked me to come back and to do something in Italian for them
to progress a little bit. And I did it. And I was very, very young
at that time. And that was a big, big experience. Because I was
coming
09:43
fading out, disappearing with the old history of the rural Italy.
And so I was familiar already with dealing with different cultures,
you know, and that is what happened. What was the name of your
band, Carlo? You didn't mention the name of your band. What would
you mean? Sorry? The name of your band. The name of my band was
Cansoniere del Lazio.
10:12
And there is some... Cansoniere means kind of a songbook, and Lazio
is the region of Rome. So it's Cansoniere de Lazio, because we
started by searching for local music in our region, as others had
done in different regions. Actually,
10:39
The beginning of all this is also American, as my gospel choir was,
because the very first guy searching music was Alan Lomax, and he
did it in America. And he's the one who discovered Sonaterio
Brown-McGee, Pete Seeger, and all the others. And he befriended
with Diego Carpitella in Italy.
11:08
I was also an ethnomusicologist, and they started searching music
in Sicily, producing different albums of their recordings. And so a
group was created, and an institution, a istituto Ernesto de
Martino, where all these materials landed eventually. And we became
part of this big...
11:37
bigger body, you know, of searchers and lovers of Italian
traditional music. Yes. And is there some similarity with the folk
music that you so love and Central Asia and why you did the score
for the series Nomads as well as Oliver Stone called you to do the
composition, the score for Kazakh?
12:05
Yeah, of course, of course, it's the same path is the same pattern.
Because when I came to Los Angeles, I was living still in Italy.
And I arrived to Los Angeles to meet my new agency. And the first
the very first meeting with my agency was, oh, you are going to
meet all the people in the music departments of the studios.
12:32
Oh, but there is a movie cut for you and did this is its name is
Nomad. I didn't even understand. I understood Nomad. And my English
was very bad, worse than today. But at that time, so I, I have been
looking on the web, but I didn't find any evidence of Nomad instead
was Nomad.
13:00
I have the poster here. And so I was in competition with many
others, but I do think that the thing that made them hire me was
the fact that I had a different attitude towards the local music.
So I said, if you guys want to hire me, you have to fly me to
Kazakhstan, because I want to study the local music.
13:29
in order for me to include the local music in the concept, in the
general concept of my score. Because this was an epic movie about
the birth of a nation, basically. It was a period movie, 1710, when
these wise men or us put together the children of all the different
tribes of that area of Central Asia.
13:56
in order for them to grow together and to be connected one to
another. You know, and this was the very beginning of the modern
Kazakhstan, actually, today's Kazakhstan. So definitely it was
fantastic because I went there first time and they sought for me
everything. I had a collaborator. She...
14:25
they organized all the meetings for me to get aware of, I mean,
knowledge about different instruments and stuff. So, but
afterwards, actually I produced, I produced a documentary after
scoring Nomad, I produced a documentary about the Kazakh music,
which is called The Wolf on the Drum, because yeah.
14:55
Because after recording the old score for Nomad, my collaborator
gave me, as a present, an eptagon frame drum, and once I hung this
drum in my apartment here in Los Angeles, the image of a wolf
formed. And this was two years later.
15:24
that I had back this drum in my apartment because it was before in
my son's apartment in Los Angeles. And so I took it as a sign and I
decided, because the wolf is the most shamanic among the animals.
Take the she-wolf of Rome, feeding Romulus and Remus, but also in
the Central Asia shamanic tradition, the wolf appears often.
15:54
And so I decided to put together a co-production between Italy and
Kazakhstan. And we went back to Kazakhstan and we met with the
Shaman people, shamans and musicians. And we put together this
documentary that you can find on Arcoiris TV, which is an Italian
kind of streaming TV. And now is there. It's called The Wolf on the
Drum.
16:24
Yes, yes. You know, I'd like you to share with my listeners, most
of my listeners are business owners, they're in technology that's
driven by the digital, right? The web, the digital disruption. And
they're creating enterprises that are scaling and bringing in
investor money. And I consider it a privilege to have a true
creator.
16:52
in the art space, right? The music space with me today. So I was
struck, you know, we met when, when Kasak had been nominated for
some awards and you had actually gifted me the original score, a
CD, right? So I was listening and prior to going to some of the,
the award ceremonies and at the film and listening to the final CD
that was produced,
17:20
the titles of the songs were different to what you had originally.
Yes. You're right when you composed these. So for business owners,
and what is it like to co-create and have a give and take? I mean,
what does it feel like for you as an artist to create, but also
knowing that the ultimate consumer, buyer of your product, the
producer, right?
17:49
may change some of the elements of your artwork? He did it, but it
wasn't truly a conflict. It was a surprise for me to see that he
wanted to change the name of the cues on the CD. But I guess he did
it because he wanted to relate more to the images rather than just
the feeling of the music. So he wanted to.
18:18
to have a more compact package. So I think he did it because of it.
And actually at the end of the day, eventually I agreed with him.
Because I remember I didn't even give proper names
18:48
before recording the cues. I had kind of codes, A1, A2, B1, B2, for
this were my working titles for the cues, you know? Or then when I
had to make up some titles for the CD, I create some titles, but
actually I have to recognize that the titles
19:17
Igor, the director, gave to the music, were better than mine. And
then we changed after he giving some titles, we shared some
opinions and we changed some of them. You know, because- I imagine
it's not only this film, but it probably happens in the industry
itself, right? A movie producer will select-
19:42
Yeah, it depends who is producing the CD. In this case, the
director and producer of the movie was also the producer of the
music. I mean, he had the last say and there was no conflict.
Actually, I asked him to change two or three of them and we changed
them in perfect harmony.
20:11
If I take it back to the sandbox or the founder sandbox, I chose
the name sandbox for this podcast because I work with a lot of
technology founders with code. They have a sandbox, which is where
they have their, like you said, you would name your scores A1, A2.
They have code names as well. So it's again, a concept in the
technology, the software space or digital health, the
20:41
or I'm trying to bring in the analogy to the creation of music for
films. So thank you, it's fascinating, it's fascinating. What
about, let's switch gears. I like to talk about resiliency, right?
Again, a lot of the listeners of the podcast have very scarce
resources and they're trying to create a large company, right? And
it's all about resilience, is wearing the multiple hats.
21:11
As an artist and making money in the music business, can you
explain the concept of residuals for my listeners and how perhaps
the digital economy has enabled you artists with more ways to
capture your residuals and actually have different revenue streams
through the digitalization of the same? So two questions.
21:41
and how artists... So residuals are... And authorize is what the
music you wrote is earning by being broadcasted, by being sold in
CDs or in DVDs, by being performed.
22:10
and by being distributed and used by different people. So there is
a second life for the music itself also out of the movies
themselves. So the music I write for a certain movie earns
authorized and residuals while the movie
22:39
every single time the movie is broadcasted, performed, screened,
whatever, you know, but also the music can have its own life, you
know, being broadcasted by itself or performed in a radio or by
being sold in the form of CDs or albums, etc. This is basically
23:07
And this is the source of our earnings, I guess. I am the worst
person to deal with money and with stuff, because I have a very bad
relationship with money. And I consider music something sacred.
23:37
sacred that has been given to me as a gift from the universe. You
know, and so I really don't like all these people who are
thinking...
23:54
who are targeting, they are, those who want to make music in order
to make money. I don't like them. I understand this market, I
understand that we need people taking care of this aspect, but they
have to be different people from the creators, you know, because,
and definitely, I mean the number of the ones who don't want to
deal at all with money.
24:24
You know, I'm so embarrassed when I have collaborators, for
instance, right? And I don't want to know how much they've been
paid by the production. If it's not me to pay them because I'm
dealing with a package deal or something, you know, so it's for me
to know, I have to know, you know, but I hate that.
24:52
I hate everything which is connected with money because I think
that creation, and even if you take an example when you have a
small budget for a movie, right? So you know already that you have
to deal with, that you cannot afford the large orchestra even if
needed and stuff. Okay, I pretend that the budget is the no
budget.
25:20
So I, because I don't want the economic part of it, the money part
of it to affect my creation and my freedom to imagine the universe,
to imagine the never-ending space, you know? I have to feel that
I'm free to create whatever I want to create with no limits. And
then I would deal.
25:49
with the production, with the money part. So I am the worst of all.
I cannot advise anyone. The only advice I can give to people is
find the right partner for that. Find the right, thank God we
have...
26:16
We have these societies representing us like ASCAP. I'm represented
for North America by ASCAP, while I'm represented for Italy and the
rest of the world by CIA in Europe. And they collect our money, you
know, all around. And they are societies, groups, collecting our
money.
26:42
the for perform for performing rights. You know, like I conduct my
music. I am a performer. So there is some residuals coming from me
performing. And also there is a secondary market, which is when,
when a movie is, and this is true residuals, when, when, when a
movie is a, after having his own life, but he has a second life on
TV and here and there, blah, blah, blah.
27:12
It collects money, still keeps collecting money. And so, but thank
God I'm well represented by ASCAP here, by CIA in Italy. And I also
have in Italy kind of a manager slash advisor slash
27:38
accountant taking care of my economic situation in Italy, because
I'm here, you know, and he is on the field. So he helps me a lot
with this part of it. But really, I don't think music has been
meant to, you know, the authorize, so the fact that, and then I
have to say also that there is a different culture.
28:06
in America or in Europe. America is more copyright culture. In
Europe and rest of the world is more authorized culture, which is
meaning that if I write a cue, it is not, you can never ever
sell.
28:34
to anybody this cue, because it's a product of my talent and is
mine forever. It's not that I can sell to someone else and say,
okay, put your name, give me the money, and the cue is yours. This
is in the culture, but it's not in the European culture. It's not
in the culture I grew up with.
29:02
which is different. So sometimes it's difficult to deal with both
size of the medal. But I think that we are going to have a final
result, including both cultures at the very end. Eventually we will
have something like that. I love how you...
29:31
find the creative process as a composer is separate from the
production. Yes, absolutely. And there should be professional
managers that handle the money side. I think that is a very, it's a
learning moment here in the podcast for founders. So your secret
sauce may be the creation of code and maybe.
29:57
the new drug you're developing, but the production, so scaling
things to get out to distribution is done by another entity or
another person on your team or your co collaborators, right? I love
it. Thank you. And without limitation of budget, the sky's the
limit. I'm going to switch gears to another topic that's very near
and dear to my heart and
30:25
part of the themes that I cover in the founders sandbox. And that's
one of governance. I like to work with founders that early on work
with proper governance structures to run the company, to create
enterprise value for the shareholders, for the employees. It's
about really governing, right? In ethical, legal and regulatory
way. And
30:55
You have been sitting in the Mecca of the Academy of Motion
Pictures, Arts and Sciences. And it's while it's not a governing
body you've shared with me, can you share kind of some of the
mechanisms by which you do work as a member? Do you work through
committees? What is your...
31:24
last three years in the executive committee of the music branch of
the Academy. So we are a big body in the sense that I think that
the members of the music branch in the world, we are about from 700
to 1000 or something, okay? But of course you need a smaller group
of people to lead.
31:53
the whole process we need to go through every year, right? So
eligibility of the scores, new members, eligibility of the songs,
all this stuff, plus different programs, side programs that Academy
has, like the, every year I opt in to be...
32:19
in the committee of the international movies. So I vote for the
international movies, for all these movies submitted by all the
countries all around the world. So it is a very privileged
observatory. You can see the best of the best coming from all
around the world. And this is only the academy able to do such a
thing. And so this is what we do. But besides, we change the
32:49
rules meetings, which means that we change the rules, for instance,
what is the bar of time for the eligibility of a soundtrack or
different rules that you can consider. And I think that the Academy
is there to be and to keep being the beacon and the inspiration for
everybody all around the world.
33:19
about the quality of filmmaking. We are supposed to keep the
quality of the filmmaking at the super top notch. And we really
mind the quality and is what we are preserving and fighting
for.
33:49
And of course we have new elements every single time entering the
scene, like the artificial intelligence. And I foresee that this
year we are going to have a very big debate inside the Academy
about artificial intelligence,
34:18
with the intellectual property of the things. And again, the
academy is not for the academy to make decisions about money or
exploitation of music and stuff, but quality and ethics, yes. And
also...
34:47
or integrity and all this stuff. This is for the Academy to do.
While there are other different groups, including ASCAP or CI, or
the Society of Composers and Lyricists, which is not the guild, but
is our Society of Composers and Lyricists here in America. And this
group is actually taking care also of the economic parts. And
also,
35:15
of the protection of the rights of the intellectual owners of the
creations. And so this is what we're dealing with at the Academy or
with the Society of Composers and Lyricists, which I'm also a
member of. And so we are in good shape in this sense. I love it.
Thank you very much. You're welcome.
35:46
timely issues as well with the current strike that's still going on
and we're into the third month. You know, I like to give an
opportunity to my guests to provide to my listeners how they might
contact you or find your craft, your work. Would you like to speak
to how we can find you and your website and the like?
36:13
that is very simple. You go Carlos Iliotto, oneworld.com, and this
is my website. There you have my email address. And, but if you
want to know more about my music or if you want to listen more
about my music, you just Google my name and you go, or you go
YouTube and you Google my name. And there are many, many things
there that you can listen to.
36:44
Yes. Thank you, Carlo. So before we finalize, I'd like to ask all
of my guests three questions. Actually, there's four, but I work
with founders on building resilient companies. What does resilience
mean to you? Resilience to me is
37:09
But I'm a white fly, I'm telling you. So I don't think I can help
any entrepreneur by saying what I'm going to say because this is my
craftsmanship, my artisanate, you know. Oh, I recently...
37:29
Talking with friends, with people in different environments about
artificial intelligence, for instance, right? My reflection was
basically this. So what is intelligence about? Intelligence, just
intelligence, you and me, and the people who are listening us.
37:53
Okay, to us. And what is intelligence like? Intelligence is the way
you connect your knowledge, you know, and you create something out
of it, or you project what you're after connecting. And so the more
intelligent is the one who connects at the best, you know, all the
information he has or the experiences they went through or all
this, okay.
38:23
Artificial intelligence does the same, exactly the same. So, but
the thing is that artificial intelligence cannot, is not able to
create excellence because, because they, the artificial
intelligence fish into a pond, which is, uh, they already existed,
they already existing. Yeah. And so.
38:50
And so, okay, they can combine, artificial intelligence can combine
the elements and come up with something, suggesting something, but
forget a new creation, forget something really, you know, you can
use the voice of some singer and have this singer singing a
different song, but you cannot create a new...
39:18
knew something, you know? So it's like, so by the way, in my
business, I do think that artificial intelligence already exists in
the sense that, you know, in movies, editors and directors, they
use temporary music while they editing a movie, no? So temporary
music, which is not the music of the
39:48
and using it on the screen there. And so, and sometimes they ask
the new composers to emulate, to imitate that music. And so what
comes up is no meat, no fish, is something, is an hybrid, which is
not even...
40:13
manageable by the composer or the self-naming composer who does
this kind of stuff. You know, you cannot, you don't imitate someone
else. Either you have your own voice, so it is worth for a director
to hire you, or if you have to just put together a replica of
something else. So this is artificial intelligence. And we had
people
40:42
true people, bones and flesh, being artificial intelligence
already. So I do think that the use of artificial intelligence in
the future will increase their job, but not my job. I am a potter.
I am a kind of an artisan, a craftsman.
41:12
making pottery, you know, in my own atelier. But without me, IKEA
or other big groups would never be able to create a new vase or a
new lamp or new, if people like me wouldn't exist. You know, if
some creators of original stuff wouldn't exist, how could possibly
an industry?
41:41
replay them, you know, then you have the good designers working for
the industry, but they are, they are craftsmen, craftsmen too, you
know, a good, a good designer is, is a craftsman too, is someone
who creates something new, original, and they create the chain then
to, to sell it out, you know, but, but, but you know what I mean?
So, so how
42:11
What was the question? So artificial intelligence today cannot, it
exists, but it cannot create excellence. No, cannot, cannot
because, because it works on the already existing. So what at the
founder sandbox with Carlos. Next question. I ask all my
guests.
42:37
Not one answers the same. There's no right or wrong. That's the
beauty of asking this question. What is purpose-driven enterprise
or purpose-driven craft? What does that, what does purpose-driven
mean to you? The purpose is the pleasure to do it. It's the
pleasure of the process, you know. And you know,
43:06
I learned this from the great ones. And I don't know if you are
familiar with the name of Pierpaolo Pasolini. Pierpaolo Pasolini
was a director, a poet, philosopher, whatever, you name it. And at
the end of a movie called The Cameron by Boccaccio, right? He's
impersonating the painter Giotto.
43:36
And the painter Giotto is painting during the movie, like kind of a
coma here and there, is painting a big fresco in a cathedral. At
the end of the movie, before delivering to the authorities the
fresco, the next day, Pasolini Giotto sleeps in the night and he
dreams of his painting, of his fresco. And this fresco,
44:05
or gets life. So the Madonna becomes Silvana Mangano, the actress
and the angel, Nineto Dauri, another actor, and everything is in
movement. So the next morning he wakes up, stares at his own
painting and goes, why to realize an opus of art when it is so
beautiful only to dream of it?
44:30
And I've been questioning myself about the meaning of this phrase
for a long time. And finally, I have an answer. The answer is to
dream of something when you dream of something while you are in the
process of doing it. I'm writing my own opera in this moment,
right? And I'm writing my opera absolutely in a spec way,
speculative, so nobody...
44:59
commissioned me is something, but they have the freedom while
writing it to dream of it. And while I'm writing a sequence or
something or a specific scene, I see the actors, I see the theater,
I hear the orchestra. And so what moves me and also because it has
been the only thing I was able to do it. I mean, and I understood
this kind of in my early days.
45:29
And I was, I studied architecture too, but you know, but I never
graduated. I missed only four exams before graduating. I said, but
I am a musician already. Why should I take a diploma for
architecture? I will never be an architect. I am a musician. So,
and so I'm not able to do anything else but this, you know?
45:59
Last one, second to last, what does sustainable or sustainability
mean to you?
46:07
Sustainability to me means integrity. Yes. So in my job, in my
environment of work, I mean in my business, which I don't like to
call business, but just to use a simple term, means integrity. So
the way you deal with the people, the way you deal with the
orchestra, the way you...
46:37
You deal with people and you deal with the orchestra, with
everybody surrounding you and helping you while doing something.
Beautiful. Thank you, Carlo. Last question. Did you have fun in
this Founder Sandbox today? Yes, yes, absolutely. Also, for a
reason, the listeners will never know. So I want to thank you from
the bottom of my heart for joining.
47:07
me, Carlos Liotto, creator, composer, member of the Academy of
Contemporary Art, and an incredible creator himself, who brought us
to through stories in his craft of creating music, many analogies
to that art.
47:36
a craft of creating a business that is resilient, purpose driven,
and sustainable. So thank you for following the founders sandbox on
your mainstream podcast channels. Have a great day. Thank you.