May 8, 2025
In this live episode of CMA Connect for CMA Marketing Week 2025, Alison Simpson the CEO of the CMA welcomes Neil Patel, New York Times bestselling author, and the Founder of NP Digital. Their conversation covers various topics from the impact of AI on marketing, and the importance of continuous learning and adaptation, to the changing nature of brand control and exposing the myth of controlling narratives. Listen in as Alison and Neil discuss the evolving landscape of the marketing profession in Canada and decide for yourself if brands still matter.
00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:05
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry
experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shift that
will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while
also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO
Alison Simpson.
00:00:22:07 - 00:00:45:09
Alison
So it's an absolute pleasure to welcome everyone in the room today,
as well as the hundreds of Canadians that are joining us from
across the country to this live version of CMA connect. As we've
heard throughout the morning, marketing isn't just changing. It is
absolutely being redefined in real time. And it's so important to
take time to reflect and digest and make sure that our pivoting
makes sense.
00:00:45:11 - 00:01:07:03
Alison
It's absolutely, very much a period of test and learn as well. And
the most recent panel did a phenomenal job of sharing how that's
working for them as well. And they both panels today have really
given us a lot to reflect on. So building on that theme, I'm
thrilled to be joined by Neil Patel and Years time bestselling
author and also the founder of NP digital.
00:01:07:05 - 00:01:32:16
Alison
He's going to be joining me on stage momentarily, but while he's
coming up, I will share a little bit about Neil. Neil's full
service digital marketing agency has helped industry giants like
Microsoft and Google, just to name a couple, grow through
revolutionary marketing strategies. He also has a marketing school
podcast that attracts over 1 million listeners monthly. The United
Nations recognized Neil as one of the top 100 entrepreneurs under
the age of 35.
00:01:32:18 - 00:01:49:15
Alison
Oh, and The Wall Street Journal cited him as a top influencer on
the web, just around things out. He made Forbes list of the top ten
marketers. You know what? I thought my career was going pretty well
until I started to learn a little bit more about Neil. So, you
know, I've had the pleasure of meeting and doing a CME session with
him last year.
00:01:49:15 - 00:01:52:18
Alison
So it's great to welcome you back to Canada.
00:01:52:20 - 00:01:56:02
Neil
Thank you. Thank you.
00:01:56:04 - 00:02:03:23
Alison
So we're going to jump right in. What are the biggest rules you've
seen rewritten. And then how are you going to rate us on our
ability to adapt to those rules.
00:02:04:01 - 00:02:25:02
Neil
Yeah. So when you're thinking about the rules of marketing, people
just used to assume marketing wasn't very black and white. I'm not
talking about from the creative aspect, but in marketing, in
general, people are like, okay, you spend money on clicks and you
get traffic to your website, you generate sales, you rank on
Google, you get clicks, you generate sales.
00:02:25:02 - 00:02:48:06
Neil
And one of the biggest rules has been changed in marketing is
platforms now are trying to optimize keeping people on their own
platform, their own site, instead of sending people off to your
website. Marcus believe that you would have to have people coming
to your website to drive revenue and sales. You can now purchase on
Instagram or TikTok without ever leaving that platform.
00:02:48:09 - 00:03:13:04
Neil
The business generates revenue and Instagram and TikTok, so have
the user. They sell them more products, more services. So I would
say the biggest rule that I'm seeing being rewritten right now is
traditional form of marketing. Of sending them to a business to
generate revenue is no longer the case. A business can make money
on multiple platforms, and it's no longer about getting people over
to your brand, your website.
00:03:13:10 - 00:03:22:14
Neil
It's more so capturing their attention on whatever platform they
are on and then selling them right then and there on that platform
natively.
00:03:22:16 - 00:03:26:17
Alison
And how are you writing marketers overall in our ability to adapt
to that?
00:03:26:19 - 00:03:53:09
Neil
Marketers have been adapting really well. What we typically see is
the marketers who work for SMEs tend to adapt first, and then the
marketers who work at large corporations typically adapt second,
because it just takes time and energy. And when you're a big
corporation, you know, that's publicly traded, that it has $100
billion market cap. It takes time to make adjustments versus when
you're a five person start.
00:03:53:11 - 00:04:00:23
Alison
Now you also work with a lot of big tech organizations. So are they
a bit more agile or they're still suffering from the same?
00:04:01:01 - 00:04:04:23
Neil
They're still suffering from the same thing that all the other
corporations are.
00:04:05:01 - 00:04:16:14
Alison
So, Neil, as we look to the future, there are some experts out
there that are starting to question will brands continue to be
relevant? So in your opinion, will Rand still matter in an age of
algorithms and hyper personalization?
00:04:16:16 - 00:04:39:00
Neil
AI brands, I think, matter more than ever before. Think of AI
overviews. You do a search you may get mentioned in a overviews you
don't necessarily always get a click back to your website. You do a
search on ChatGPT. You may see a brand or a product or service
recommended. You may end up purchasing later on. You may not
purchase at all, but it's very rare that you're actually clicking
over to the website.
00:04:39:06 - 00:04:57:07
Neil
You see a real on Instagram or video. Whatever you want and calling
it short form. See a product or service mention you don't go and
buy right away. In most cases. That brand recognition, though, is
what eventually leads to a sale. In marketing, they call something
the rule of seven. Or there's this thing called the Rule of
seven.
00:04:57:07 - 00:05:24:03
Neil
When someone sees or interacts with your brand seven times, they're
much more likely to engage, become a customer, evangelize. And we
started looking at price points in both B2C and B2B. Of course, the
cheaper the price point, the less interaction someone needed with
the brand before they purchase. But when we looked at price points
across the whole board for both B2B and B2C, the average number of
interactions someone has with the brand when we did a study was
around 11.
00:05:24:08 - 00:05:34:22
Neil
So branding is more important than ever, because if you're not
touching people multiple times and you're not saying top of mind,
you're less likely to drive that sale when they're ready to make
that decision.
00:05:35:00 - 00:05:56:14
Alison
Now, awareness and trust in a brand is obviously yes. We heard the
panel talk about the emotional part of a brand. It's there's always
going to be product features and benefits. But as humans we react
emotionally. And we also heard a lot about authenticity. What else
would you add to what makes a brand as important or even more
important today?
00:05:56:16 - 00:06:12:05
Neil
So if you want your brand to be super important, I would say you
got to figure out an angle. You know, trust, authenticity. These
are all a lot of things that markers talk about. And it's been
there for a very long time. But what are you doing that's
different? So I'll give you a great example of this right.
00:06:12:07 - 00:06:37:01
Neil
I'm listening in. I'm from the States. I'm not familiar with as
many Canadian brands as you guys may be. So one of the panelists
before me was from Farm Girl. Never heard of it. I have kids, don't
give them cereal in the morning. Why? It's terrible for you in most
cases, right? The advantage you guys have here in Canada is you
guys typically have cleaner ingredients.
00:06:37:03 - 00:07:01:00
Neil
Our box of FrootLoops is much worse, at least from what we see on
Instagram Reels when they compare versus what the Canadian version
of FrootLoops is. All right, so when I saw Farm Girl, the first
thing I did, even if there's a tariff for me, I tried to purchase
it on Amazon, I think was like 20 something dollars, USD per
package.
00:07:01:00 - 00:07:17:01
Neil
I added three to a cart, and then I was like, I'm like, wait, I'm
here for extra like few hours. Can I just go to the grocery store
and pick some up? Because my suitcase is half empty? I'm literally
here for a day, right? Like I should just go to the grocery store
and just see if I can shove a ton in.
00:07:17:03 - 00:07:54:05
Neil
I don't know what's going to happen at the customs or I'm Global
Entry, so hopefully I don't get any beef, but that was a unique
angle, solving a problem that people have. When I grew up, I eat
cereal and my parents didn't know any better. Immigrants from
India, you know, they look at it as like, anything's great. We're
not living on the street, you know, give your kid whatever is on
sale, affordable cut coupons, etc. at this point in time, we're
much more educated as parents then I would say that the previous
generations were, and it has nothing to do with intellect.
00:07:54:05 - 00:08:17:21
Neil
I think a lot of it has to do with the data and the social
platforms pushing out so much information that we're able to
consume it and learn more. But going back to it, that brand stood
out to me. She's booming. Great growth. I'm happy for her. But as a
consumer, her success of her generating tons of revenue and growing
fast is why I would buy the product.
00:08:18:02 - 00:08:38:10
Neil
I'm buying the product. You know, either it's going to be Amazon or
in-store if I can find it, but I'm buying the product for one
simple reason a unique value proposition. Solving a very important
problem. Parent busy in the morning. Don't want to give them crap
food. Don't want to spend tons of money on Uber Eats to get
restaurant quality food in there.
00:08:38:10 - 00:08:58:22
Neil
I tend to do the morning shift. Terrible cook healthy cereal? Why
not? Right? No, no. But in the US, I don't think there is a skill.
Right. Or I would do skip whatever it may and whatever it may end
up being right. But that is why I was willing to purchase that
brand. And to me that is something unique.
00:08:59:00 - 00:09:17:12
Neil
Okay. And when you see something unique like that, people end up
latching on and they see fast growth. I don't know her revenue
numbers, but I bet you there in the eight figures sounds like a new
business. But if I had to place a bet, I would bet you there are an
eight figures. Why did they scale so fast?
00:09:17:17 - 00:09:33:13
Neil
That brand did something unique and new that people have never
experienced before. Now there may have been another competitor who
did exactly what she did a year or two earlier, but if it doesn't
get out there and no one talks about it, then in most to most
people it doesn't exist.
00:09:33:15 - 00:09:38:04
Alison
So Jennifer, you have at least one sale from your appearance this
morning. I suspect you have a lot more in the audience too.
00:09:38:04 - 00:09:42:02
Neil
Well, minimum of three because I added three different flavours to
my cart.
00:09:42:04 - 00:09:57:11
Alison
So it wouldn't be Marketing Week if we didn't talk about AI with at
least one question. Yeah, clearly it's transforming marketing. How
do you see it impacting marketing? And probably more importantly,
what are the skills you think we as marketers need to build moving
forward?
00:09:57:13 - 00:10:21:22
Neil
So I was here last year and I was a center and people were
discussing AI and how it's going to crush everything. It's going to
turn everything, you know, upside down on the pyramid and the way
organizations do business is going to be drastically different. All
right. So we've seen a lot of data. I've always been on a different
side of AI than what I think a lot of marketers and businesses
believe.
00:10:22:00 - 00:10:39:22
Neil
Keep in mind though, a lot of this is not my opinion. I talked to
people who are actually coding these products, and I speak with the
people from these platforms like no joke, whether it's in their
offices or dinners. Like, I know some of the top guys, as you know,
these corporations that are worth a crack load of money.
00:10:39:22 - 00:11:01:09
Neil
And although their goal is to make AI as seamless as possible and
help you in every aspect, there's a few big problems that most
marketers aren't taking into consideration. So the first problem
is, is the way I works is it takes all the data inputs and it
creates outputs based on what you asked, but it learns from all the
inputs.
00:11:01:15 - 00:11:19:15
Neil
The problem with AI is those inputs are all accurate and there's
not an easy way to solve this. It's like do a Google search. Have
you ever noticed that when you do a Google search, some of the
information you read is just off? Raise your hand. Okay, almost
everyone in here is raising your hand. You don't think Google
hasn't tried to solve this?
00:11:19:15 - 00:11:39:08
Neil
They've been trying to solve this for ages. Like when I say ages
almost since when they started. It's hard. Oh, what are you going
to base on? Backlinks? Well, a lot of people link to inaccurate
information. Comments a lot of people comment on something because,
you know, whether you want to talk about how their politics or
religion, there's people on both sides.
00:11:39:11 - 00:12:03:07
Neil
So it creates polarizing views. Right? A great example of this is
the vaccines. When the vaccines first came about, when Covid,
people in different parts of the world were getting shunned, if
they did not take the vaccine. I'm not saying that's right or
wrong. I'm not here to get political. But if I fast forward today
and I'm not going to have you guys raise your hands because, again,
not trying to get political, I bet almost everyone in this room
does not get booster shots.
00:12:03:12 - 00:12:27:00
Neil
I don't even need to raise your hand. I can see the data in the
earnings calls. Right? These companies are publicly traded. It's
just the reality. But when it first came out, most people had a
different tune about vaccines. And it doesn't mean that the
government is right or wrong or pharmaceuticals right or wrong. But
what I'm getting at is that information online of what people are
posting was very polarizing or people had different views.
00:12:27:00 - 00:12:45:20
Neil
So when I pulls in that, how do they know what is right or wrong?
It makes things really complex. So today when you ask AI to help
you with something, you need humans in the loop to review. When you
have a I help you with a marketing campaign and come up with a
strategy and everyone starts to do that.
00:12:45:21 - 00:13:09:09
Neil
How is it really going to be differentiated? The creativity that
people have is what makes marketing truly unique and amazing. But
here's the thing and marketing is here to stay. It is going to make
the whole industry move faster, much more efficient. And what
you'll see is people will get things done much faster and waste a
lot less money.
00:13:09:09 - 00:13:29:08
Neil
But even then you're going to still have humans in the loop. It's
just AI is going to replace a lot of the D and C players. I
eventually believe it will start replacing B players as well. We're
quite a ways from that. When you want to look at how much AI has
advanced in the past year, I understand that you can see like, oh
wow, look at this video that it created.
00:13:29:08 - 00:13:49:13
Neil
Look at this action figure turn me into. But look at it from a
usability perspective, from your work that you're performing on a
daily basis. You want it to have a great content for you. Has it
really drastically improve the quality of that content over the
last six months? Not as much compared to when it first came out in
the first year.
00:13:49:14 - 00:14:17:04
Neil
There was so much more progress that we would see in the quality of
improvements, but it's taking longer for you to see leaps and
bounds and improvements for things like content quality. And the
reason being is every percent improvement is a lot more work than
at its earlier stages. Again, it is here to stay. It is going to
replace a lot of the bottom feeders or the people who aren't that
great at their job, and it's going to make the people who are
really good at their job more valuable.
00:14:17:04 - 00:14:25:12
Neil
They're going to get paid more, and you got to figure out how you
continue to learn and adapt to try to stay in that top percent
style in whatever industry or so.
00:14:25:12 - 00:14:39:00
Alison
Clearly, everyone that's tuned in today, if they're not already in
a player, wants to be in a player, want a long term career in
marketing. So what skills do we need to be adapting or growing in
order to make sure that we're here in the long term?
00:14:39:02 - 00:15:01:20
Neil
The first thing is, is learn how to use all the AI tools. When I
say learn how to use them, I'm not talking about just putting in a
prompt into ChatGPT. Think about the KPIs your department, you or
the business has to hit. What are the things that you can do to
help? I get you there faster, more efficiently, and figure out ways
to use the tools to show positive traction.
00:15:02:00 - 00:15:18:02
Neil
Not hey look, I use ChatGPT and I did all this cool stuff for the
last two days. Oh great. And they're like, yeah, the fast forward
six months. Look at all this crazy stuff I did the last six months.
What were the results in traffic? Brand recognition, revenue leads.
They're like, oh, it saved me a lot of time.
00:15:18:02 - 00:15:40:09
Neil
What did you do with the extra time? I did more of that stuff, but
it didn't produce results. If it doesn't produce results, at the
end of the day, it doesn't matter. And I'm not saying I can't
produce results. It's that most marketers are using it for stuff
that is a waste of time, and you need to start focusing on how can
you use these tools to not only help you do your job better, but
show better results?
00:15:40:13 - 00:16:02:06
Neil
And a lot of that's going to come from experimentation. The second
thing is continue to go to events and learn. You never will know
everything. And that's okay. I've been in this space for more than
20 years, 24 years now. It's changed drastically. And some people
ask me when I'm at some of these events, sometimes I talk to these
college kids and they're like, why did you waste 15 20 minutes
talking to a college kid?
00:16:02:06 - 00:16:20:11
Neil
Are they going to become a customer? I'm like, no, like, so why did
do they know more about marketing than you? I'm like, well, it
depends. And they're like, what are you talk to? Like? Well, they
grew up using these platforms. I didn't they see some of these
trends and patterns before I do. What can I learn from them that I
don't understand?
00:16:20:17 - 00:16:39:10
Neil
And that's what you have to do when you go to these events is
network with everyone, because you don't know who you're going to
learn from, and never judge someone by their job title or the size
of the company they work out, or their net worth, or the way they
dress. You literally can learn from anyone, and when you do that,
you'll become a much better person.
00:16:39:12 - 00:17:08:04
Neil
The third thing, thank you. The third thing is continually read
every single day, but limit it if you want to read for leisure, by
all means, read as much as you want. But what I see people doing in
marketing is continue reading articles and blogs and books, and
they may read for 4 or 5 hours a day instead of saying, hey, I'm
going to try to read for 30 minutes or an hour and then go and
implement what I learned.
00:17:08:06 - 00:17:36:07
Neil
So you read all these cool things that are happening with AI or
marketing or branding, or even listen on the panel or a podcast,
but very few people take that knowledge and do anything with it.
Try to experiment. You're probably not gonna be able to do it
daily, but try to implement one thing that you learned from a
podcast or book a blog article at least once a week, and you'll
start slowly growing your skill set as a marker, and you'll start
seeing better results.
00:17:36:09 - 00:17:55:09
Neil
And if I give you one last bonus tip when it comes to becoming
better as an individual, don't just look at things as KPIs. Don't
just look at it. Here's the year I gotta hit this goal. I want you
to also start looking from a different lens. And that lens is what
are all the problems that are holding us back from growing.
00:17:55:15 - 00:18:12:14
Neil
We're hitting our numbers now. Break it down to what are bite size
things that can be fixed within a week, and start just tackling
them one by one. People really do miss most their goals and
objectives within an organization, and the reason being is they
shoot for, hey, I got to do this.
00:18:12:14 - 00:18:13:12
Alison
In a year.
00:18:13:14 - 00:18:28:02
Neil
And they don't know how to get there. But if you start looking at
things as problems and you start fixing them one by one, you fast
forward three months, six months, you're like, whoa, we've made a
lot of progress, and we're seeing it in our numbers, and you're
just tackling a lot of the issues you have as an organization.
00:18:28:07 - 00:18:30:20
Neil
And when you tackle them, usually see growth.
00:18:30:22 - 00:19:01:14
Alison
So remarkably great advice. I love the learn by doing. I love sort
of chunking it out. And those like small steps lead to with the
benefit of time, huge outcomes. I also love you can learn from
anyone. So in any beyond networking, in events, in any organization
you're part of, if you have the opportunity to speak to students or
anyone at any level in an organization, the amount of incredible
insights and ideas that come out and that you can benefit from at
any level in the organization is incredibly powerful.
00:19:01:16 - 00:19:31:16
Alison
And then your first piece of advice resonates the most with me.
Anyone that wants to be future proofing your career in marketing,
if you are doing work that is driving a business forward, that is
growing the business and delivering results, there is no better way
to futureproof yourself. And as a profession, all of us need to be
much more accountable and embracing of that, that commercial value
that we're driving and really do a good job of advocating for the
critical role that marketing plays in building brands and building
businesses today. So, Neil, outstanding advice on all four
counts.
00:19:36:13 - 00:19:40:22
Neil
Yeah. Thank you.
00:19:41:00 - 00:20:01:01
Neil
And one last thing. When it comes to AI, the amount of businesses
we interact with across the world that still have a move to the
cloud is ridiculously high. It just. And the reason I say that is
air is definitely here. The cloud has been here for a long time and
we all know it's here to stay. Businesses don't adapt as fast as
most people think.
00:20:01:04 - 00:20:13:07
Neil
This is why startups can overtake trillion dollar companies is
because large organizations inherently move slow. Politics,
bureaucracy, see a lot of people, a lot of moving parts.
00:20:13:09 - 00:20:21:20
Alison
So decentralized technologies are reshaping how consumers are
interacting with brands. How might this shift influence loyalty
programs and engagement strategies?
00:20:21:22 - 00:20:47:13
Neil
Yeah. So let's first go with loyalty programs, right? I think
there's actually going to be a huge shift to loyalty programs over
time. Which leads to the second part. And how is this going to
decentralization, going to relate companies just abroad. If you
look at the pattern right now, people use multiple social
platforms. I have people raise their hand because I bet if I ask
you how many social platforms you use, most of you guys can raise
your hand for one.
00:20:47:13 - 00:21:10:03
Neil
Actually, all of you will. Or almost all most you going to raise
your hands or to most your hands will raise your hands for three a
month. But the moment I ask you if you use four social media
platforms a month, very few you're going to raise your hands. Five
is going to really drop, but the average person logs in and uses
6.6 social platforms a month, according to Sprout Social 6.6 and
the same thing is happening with search.
00:21:10:06 - 00:21:35:19
Neil
People are starting to use Google ChatGPT, they're starting to use,
you know, perplexity and the list goes on and on and on. The same
goes with tools and a lot of the tech out there people are using
not platforms. And what you're going to end up seeing is technology
is everywhere, and the way regulation ends up working is these
companies are more likely to get split apart at this point than to
be able to buy up their competitors.
00:21:35:21 - 00:22:06:00
Neil
And it's not a US thing. It's not a Canada thing. It's a global
thing. If the US approves the acquisition, then you know, Europe
may not. The perfect example of this is there's Pinterest and Snap.
They don't make anywhere near the amount of money that Facebook
makes. Their stocks are struggling. Do you think an ideal world
Google would just buy X, Pinterest, snap and all these platforms
because they have the biggest ad ecosystem they can just drive tons
of advertisers and ads on their platform and just use the revenue
without doing much work.
00:22:06:02 - 00:22:24:03
Neil
This is not a hypothetical. This is actually if they bought it, you
would see the revenue just skyrocket. And what I'm getting at is
they can't because governments globally will not allow them to. You
had to get a lot to prove to do one of these acquisitions. So what
you're going to start seeing is technology can truly be
fragmented.
00:22:24:03 - 00:22:47:06
Neil
People will use it for what it is. People started skirting around
the law. A great example of this is did you know that Amazon and
Google and Facebook have not bought in that many AI companies?
Right. I get they're buying some companies here or there, but do
you know what they did? Hey, you should open source your technology
and we'll take a lot of your employees and pay you a license deal
to use that technology.
00:22:47:09 - 00:23:23:18
Neil
This is their way of getting around monopolistic issues or laws or
the government's not wanting them to buy up competitors and then be
the only player in town. And what you'll end up seeing is
technology will be out there from multiple platforms. And these
platforms. The biggest trend that you're going to see is you'll
have to not only learn to use technology for whatever it is and all
the data won't be stored in one place because of rules and
regulation, but these platforms will try to keep you on there for
everything, including things like loyalty programs, the all in one
apps that you see in Asia.
00:23:23:20 - 00:23:41:13
Neil
You bet you're going to start seeing more of them here in Canada.
What it is be easier. Just like you can purchase a product now on
Instagram that when you're in Starbucks, use it through your
Instagram app and you get hooked up. It's easier to do that than it
is to download a Starbucks app, right? And that's what you're going
to end up seeing.
00:23:41:19 - 00:23:51:02
Neil
And then the data is going to be per platform, and you're going to
have no choice but to use each platform for what it is. And data
and analytics will be more important than ever.
00:23:51:04 - 00:24:07:19
Alison
So marketers, especially in a soft economy, especially when there's
uncertainty, there's a lot of pressure for short term results. And
short term results are really important. But short term results
only last when you're also doing long term brand building. So how
can marketers balance the two?
00:24:07:21 - 00:24:31:19
Neil
Yeah, you don't have a choice. Ideally, you need to think long term
with your marketing. But people need short term results, especially
when the economy is bad. So I like using the 8020 rule 20% of your
efforts should be focused on short term things that have a positive
ROI. 80% should be long term, but just because they're long term
doesn't mean you shouldn't see results within two months, three
months, six months, eight months, 12 months.
00:24:31:19 - 00:24:48:19
Neil
It should get progressively better over time. It may not be in full
effect until a year or two, but it doesn't mean that you can't see
some results within three months. When you're thinking long term,
like, oh cool, we're going to do this. We won't see any results
until year four. You're probably doing something wrong with your
long term approach.
00:24:48:21 - 00:24:56:19
Alison
With the rise of user generated content and influencer marketing,
how can brands maintain narrative control while still embracing
these channels?
00:24:56:21 - 00:25:17:12
Neil
You cannot maintain narrative control. That is a false sense of
reality. I can go buy Farm Girl cereal between all my social
platforms. I have millions of followers, and hypothetically, if I
had a terrible experience, I bet you I'm going to have a delightful
experience. This is just a hypothetical. I could say, look how bad
the cereal is and, you know, allergic reaction and all this kind of
stuff.
00:25:17:12 - 00:25:42:19
Neil
But I looked at the ingredients. I was literally zooming in on my
phone, and Amazon really clean ingredients, and that's when I added
it to the cart, right? I literally swiped and zoomed in. And then
on the flip side, I can say, look at this. I've had amazing
experience. Look at my kids. You know, it's not getting them
addicted to, you know, 50g of sugar per serving or something crazy
like that because it's healthy, it's well balanced, yada yada,
yada.
00:25:42:19 - 00:25:58:14
Neil
You guys get the point. And I haven't looked at the ingredients,
but I'm assuming it is more I haven't analyzed ingredients fully,
but I'm assuming it's much more well-balanced. And let's say, you
know, a general cereal that you pick up off the grocery aisle. But
I can say something good, or I can say something bad. She can't
control that.
00:25:58:17 - 00:26:19:18
Neil
She can try to combat that. But you can't control the narrative.
You can respond to the narratives. You can try to create your own
narrative, but you will not be able to ever control the narrative
ever again. And that's the reality. Doesn't matter what country
that you're targeting or focusing, you cannot control the narrative
anymore. That's how social media works.
00:26:19:20 - 00:26:43:11
Neil
All you can do is respond and do your best. And this is when I tell
people, when you have some people saying bad things or negative
things, try to respond and don't be combative unless they're really
awesome, but try to do it in a polite way and show them where they
can do to improve. You know, if they did something wrong, they use
a product or service in the wrong way, or if they didn't say thank
you for the feedback.
00:26:43:11 - 00:26:58:18
Neil
I'm really sorry you're disappointed. If there's anything we can do
to make it right, please let us know. And we're going to take this
feedback and work on improving our product and service. And this is
how. But just being transparent and honest and just being public
about it, a lot of times it does a lot of good.
00:26:58:20 - 00:27:18:07
Alison
So building on that, having it goes back to the importance of brand
building and having brand advocates, because even more powerful
than the brand, apologizing is when your community steps up and
apologizes or helps combat the negative as well. So it just speaks
to performance marketing and brand building. It shouldn't be one or
the other. It needs to be both.
00:27:18:09 - 00:27:41:19
Neil
Yes, but your community is more likely to respond and defend you if
they understand that as an organization that you guys are willing
to listen. If you don't listen, then you're going to be screwed.
You know, that's the reality. Someone's going to go to the
competition. There was a panelist earlier was talking about
mortgages and how they adopted, people wanting better rates,
refinancing.
00:27:41:21 - 00:28:05:18
Neil
Now the back story. But they figured out a partnership with another
company based on what I heard, and they figured out a solution for
their customers. And that's example of listening. People just want
to know that you listen. If you listen, it's okay if you make
mistakes, everyone does. But if you listen and you're willing to
adapt, admit when you're wrong and showcase how you're going to
improve, you'll get the community to rally behind you.
00:28:05:23 - 00:28:13:12
Neil
But if you don't and you're just going to be arrogant, be like, no,
no, no, you're wrong. I'm smarter than you. Then why would anyone
care?
00:28:13:14 - 00:28:21:07
Alison
So is immersive digital experiences evolve? How should brands
prepare to build and sustain their identity in virtual spaces?
00:28:21:09 - 00:28:45:17
Neil
Yeah, so virtual spaces are going to be very similar to what you
see right now on the web. It's all digital. You have a website, you
have brand guidelines. Imagine a virtual mall and someone wearing
augmented reality glasses like Oculus or Apple Vision Pro, but cool
technology. I'm just waiting for the glasses format. I'm like,
dude, I thought I was going to travel with it.
00:28:45:19 - 00:29:03:08
Neil
The carrying case is literally a backpack and I'm like, I can't fit
a backpack with in my backpack. How am I getting with my laptop at
this point? Right? But just like you have brand guidelines for the
web, your social media, your website, you will have the same for
things like virtual reality and virtual spaces. There's not much of
a difference.
00:29:03:10 - 00:29:25:04
Neil
Even when corporations integrate their brand within games, which
we're starting to see more and more, and that's starting to become
more normal. What happens? Brands not only get make money from
this, right a game, they get paid for brand integrating within
their virtual or, you know, their characters or uniforms or
whatever it may be, but they have brand guidelines, just like you
see with the offline world.
00:29:25:07 - 00:29:51:00
Neil
And we're seeing companies now being like, oh, let's mix Oreos in
with protein powder and be like Oreo protein powder. All right.
You're using Oreos name. There's definitely brand guidelines that
you're going to have to follow from Oreo when you integrate their
product. And if you don't believe me, once you sign the deal with
them, you'll see that they'll force you to use certain types of
colors, logos, etc. they're way for integration.
00:29:51:02 - 00:29:54:23
Neil
And you're going to see this whether it's virtual or in the
traditional sense.
00:29:55:01 - 00:30:04:08
Alison
So our event this one is called exclusively for the bright. So in
today's climate and looking ahead, what do you believe is the
bravest move a marketer can make and why?
00:30:04:10 - 00:30:27:19
Neil
The bravest move that I've seen marketers do is figure out how to
crush their existing model and transform into a new model. You look
at Shopify, Canadian company, one of the best products out there in
the e-commerce realm, period, right? You can look at their earnings
as proof they built the email product they want in marketing there
as a business.
00:30:27:19 - 00:30:47:18
Neil
They want everyone to use their own systems. What do they
eventually end up doing? Partnering with Klaviyo, taking a big cut,
crushing what they actually wanted because they did what they
thought was better for the user or the future based on what they
saw for adoption. Most people aren't willing to do that. The CEO of
that company, I think is exceptionally brilliant.
00:30:48:00 - 00:31:15:05
Neil
I'm not talking about just from a intellect standpoint, definitely
a smart, but I'm talking about he's willing to do stuff that most
companies would not be willing to do when he knows it's the right
fit for the long run. Think about doing that for everything. You
know, we have marketing tools like Uber has announced the public we
were burning three, 400 grand a month on these tools at the very
beginning and releasing them for free, and they still are for
free.
00:31:15:05 - 00:31:31:05
Neil
There are paid versions, but most of it's free, 80 plus percent of
it. And people are like, you're crazy. And I'm like, this is
actually cheaper than spending money on paid ads. And I'm like, it
will be. But at the beginning it was cost me 3 or 400 grand a
month, and I was barely getting any leads from it, and I was just
eating a ton of money.
00:31:31:08 - 00:31:54:00
Neil
Now when I do the back end math, it would be something like $6
million a month worth of ad spend to generate similar results.
Doing what's unconventional that people haven't tried before taking
those risks is really how you be brave and I've been to Canada many
times. People tell me Canadians are conservative. People tell me
Canadians can't take risks.
00:31:54:02 - 00:32:14:12
Neil
I call it bull. They're smart people. You guys can do anything. You
guys put your minds here. You guys have built some amazing
corporations throughout history. And not just that, people all over
the world are using Canada products. Believe in yourselves. You can
do anything you put your mind to. You don't have to take the
traditional route. We're a global company with people.
00:32:14:12 - 00:32:38:12
Neil
In 28 countries. I think some of the best talent is here in Canada.
We run our creative globally. Out of Canada has nothing to do with
currency exchange. You know, people talk about Canada as currency
exchange. I don't look at it that way. You want to know why we run
our creative here from Canada? Because we have some of the best
creative talent we've ever found here in Canada.
00:32:38:17 - 00:32:44:09
Neil
Seriously, like, you guys have amazing talent here. Don't count
yourselves out.
00:32:44:15 - 00:32:47:14
Alison
You're doing it because you're very smart. That's why you're doing
it.
00:32:47:19 - 00:33:06:00
Neil
We did it because seriously, when we look for the talent, we look
globally. It was amazing. Tanya. Ronnie, one of our managing
directors in Canada, one of our best global leaders. Right. He's
from the side that speaks French. The.
00:33:06:02 - 00:33:23:09
Alison
So, Neil, you clearly have a very enviable career. And I know
everyone that's tuned in today and is with us in person would
benefit from learning from your journey. So what's one piece of
advice that you would leave our listeners with who want to follow
in your success in your entrepreneurial career path?
00:33:23:11 - 00:33:45:07
Neil
The biggest thing that I've learned and knows from my mom if you
don't try, you'll never receive. I want to say don't try. You know,
people like, I'll just take a shot. I'm talking about trying crazy
stuff. All right. So my mom immigrated from India. English was her
second language back then. When she went to school, English was not
the first language.
00:33:45:08 - 00:34:01:10
Neil
So when my mom came to the States as a teacher, she didn't have a
teaching degree that was valid in the States, so she had to go to
nighttime college we couldn't afford. We lived in long canals and
we could not afford for daycare, but my dad had to work as well
because you got to put food on the table.
00:34:01:12 - 00:34:23:01
Neil
And no joke, my mom pushed the stroller to school few miles a day
each way there and back, then said, I'll teach for free if you keep
my kids here while I teach to build up the hours, I can get my
credits and they get my certification. She did it for six months.
No pay. All right. Then one day when she started her own school,
she did one of the craziest things ever.
00:34:23:03 - 00:34:41:21
Neil
And she's like this will work. And I'm like, what is it, mom? It's
like, I'm going to go to all my competitor schools and tell them,
hey, the state only allows you or the government only allows you to
have so many kids based on the teacher ratio in class ratio. So
you're full. Here's fliers I want you to give them to every single
parent that comes in.
00:34:41:21 - 00:35:06:23
Neil
You're asking to put their kid into school when you don't have a
spot. And she wasn't around to like 60 plus schools. Most of them
just threw her fliers in the trash thinking she's crazy. A few of
them center students. All of a sudden she went from making zero to
over $100,000 a year, which is a lot of money, because she gave
fliers to all her competitors and asked them to promote her school
because they were full.
00:35:06:23 - 00:35:28:09
Neil
She didn't give them a commission, no affiliate deal, no money
exchange. She just asked. And it worked. That was just crazy stuff
that she would try. And she always taught me, if you don't ask,
you'll never get. And I remember one day my dad took me to
Nordstrom's because someone gave him a gift card. He would never
naturally show off their expensive department store.
00:35:28:14 - 00:35:31:23
Neil
So we gave him a gift card. He's like, this blue.
00:35:31:23 - 00:35:32:21
Alison
Shirt is this same.
00:35:32:21 - 00:35:50:15
Neil
As this white shirt, same brand, but the white one is 50% off and
the blue one is not. I want the blue one, but please give it to me
at 50% off. And the lady is like, I can't do that. It's not on. So
she's like, why not? You discount the other one. I want to speak to
someone else.
00:35:50:17 - 00:35:53:04
Neil
They actually gave him 50% off. Then he.
00:35:53:04 - 00:35:53:23
Alison
Is they.
00:35:54:01 - 00:36:15:23
Neil
He uses gift card. But what my parents taught me is if you never
ask, you'll never receipt. And they ask for the craziest stuff. And
someone being in the corporate world, if you even work in the core
folder, you're entrepreneur. It doesn't matter. You can ask and
you'll be shocked and what you can receive. There is a guy named
Rich Barton.
00:36:16:01 - 00:36:31:11
Neil
I don't know if you've ever heard his story. He created a company
called Expedia. You guys know it's Expedia. Did you know he went to
Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer and said, I want to create this
company called Expedia. Give me a $100 million. I think it was like
$100 million that he wanted. You know, what they did?
00:36:31:17 - 00:37:01:05
Neil
They did not give him $100 million. They thought, you can use a
Microsoft name and our cloud will spin up, a separate company will
raise it from other people, and we'll hook you up as well with
equity and ownership. That is how he became rich. He convinced his
boss. Technically, he asked his boss for a large sum of money or
his boss's boss, and they said no, but they liked idea enough where
they spun up a new company, took money from other people, and
that's how Expedia was born.
00:37:01:06 - 00:37:22:18
Neil
The moral of the story is, most people would not ask their boss for
$100,000,000 plus years ago, but he did. That $100 million was way
more back then. Companies never raise that kind of money. In other
words, if you don't ask, you'll never receive. It doesn't matter if
you're an entrepreneur or you work for a corporation. If you have
something that you truly believe in, fight for it.
00:37:22:20 - 00:37:42:02
Neil
Back up your data points with data and you know other people you
know, agreeing with your signing off or backing you up and see how
far you can go. And remember when you get to know a know, does it
mean no? It just means not right now. So readjust your pitch and
come back like, yeah, I know you said no, but I'm adjusting it.
00:37:42:06 - 00:37:54:23
Neil
And no just means not right now. And eventually people of that
persistence, you may wear them down and get that. Yes.
00:37:55:01 - 00:38:21:15
Alison
Neil, thank you so much for a really great conversation, for a
really great morning. It was a wonderful way to kick off CMA
Marketing Week. I also want to say a huge thank you to everyone
that's joined us in person and virtually across the country.
Looking forward to seeing you at a lot of our events this week.
We've got a great training session that's free for members this
afternoon, and we've got a whole array of other in-person events,
socials, professional development opportunities, and lots of ways
for us to come together as a community.
00:38:21:21 - 00:38:29:17
Alison
But Neil, a huge thank you to you and friend P digital for kicking
off our CMA marketing week and for a really great podcast
conversation.
00:38:29:18 - 00:38:38:00
Neil
Thank you everyone.
00:38:38:02 - 00:38:50:16
Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for
your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and
benefit from the latest marketing, thought leadership, news and
industry trends.