Oct 3, 2023
Alison Simpson, CEO of CMA, welcomes Tyjondah Kerr, Director of Program Development and Delivery at OLG and Patrick Bhang, Director of Retail Merchandising, RBC, to discuss affecting change and combatting racism and discrimination in the marketing profession.
Patrick Bhang's thoughts, opinions and insights are done so as a marketing professional and not as a representative of RBC.
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Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow,
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while also delivering on today's business needs. Alison: So helping ensure that the marketing profession in Canada is as diverse and inclusive as the Canadians that we're marketing to is absolutely a top priority for the CMA,
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as well as for our membership. On that note, we have a dedicated DEI committee that's made up of very talented marketers and DEI experts from across our broad membership, and they play a key role in our efforts.
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One of the ways the CMA is helping to advance DEI within marketing is through research that also helps lead to action. So our DEI in the marketing profession Progress and challenges survey earlier this year really explored what steps can be taken to have a meaningful impact on diversity in the workplace for the marketing profession.
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The research was developed in collaboration with the CMA's DEI committee, and it's third study that we've completed since 2020. So it's an important part of our broader commitment to take steps to combat racism and discrimination in marketing.
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So it is an absolute pleasure to welcome two members from our DEI committee today to discuss this really important call to action for the profession. So I'll start by introducing Tyjondah Kerr,
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who is the Director of Social Responsibility at OLG. She's also a self -described Chief Disruption Officer, which definitely comes in handy when you're focused on driving positive change. And then joining Tyjondah and myself today is Patrick Bhang.
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He's the Director of Retail Marketing for RBC, and Patrick's also my very highly valued co -chair for the CMA DEI committee. It's really great to have both of you here today, Tiana and Patrick.
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Tyjondah: Thank you for having me. Patrick: Thank you for having me. Alison: So we're gonna get right into the topic. As marketers, we can absolutely all agree that our profession has a very unique opportunity to drive diversity,
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equity, and inclusion from a number of angles. However, many marketers are still seeking guidance and best practices on how they can best do that and have a real impact.
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So in some instances, it's really hard for them to know where to begin. And that's exactly what we're going to do, is we're going to begin by asking how to help marketers continue having these conversations.
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So I'd love to ask each of you if you could start by sharing your views on marketing's impact and taking that first step. Tiana, why don't you kick things off? Tyjondah: Absolutely. Thank you, Alison. I think I like to start off by telling everybody you all have a sphere of influence when it comes to this work.
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No matter what level you are at, whether you're a graphic designer, art director, owner of an agency, any particular person can influence their work,
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their day -to -day through EDI. And you need to start with understanding that equity has to happen. And I think a lot of us start with diversity and we get scared and there's fear.
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But our organization here at OLG puts equity first. It's equity, diversity, then inclusion. And the reason why we do that is because if you have the focus on equity by sort of balancing out the inequities that are causing the problems,
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when you put that first at the forefront of the conversation, then diversity can come next as well as inclusion. I will actually say inclusion should come first because you want to always have a culture of inclusion where folks feel comfortable to be themselves and especially within the marketing industry to come feel safe to bring their ideas forward and to make change.
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In a nutshell, I just say that we all have influence, no matter what our level and what we do, and to just jump in without fear. It's scary to screw up and make mistakes,
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but it is what it is. We are human beings. We aim for progress, not perfection. And so in doing that, when we go into it on a daily basis and under our own capacity,
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how we can affect change by what we do, just jump in with both feet. And if we make a mistake, we say we're sorry and we just grow from that and we get better. And I really think for all marketers, for any level of where you are at in the profession,
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EDI is something that should be at the forefront just because of the work that involves both internally and externally and how we impact the world. And so honestly, Allison, to start us off,
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that is what I would say. Like jump in without fear, consider equity first and how you want to go about doing that. Then focus on inclusivity and making sure people feel welcome and appreciated and valued. And we all have that sense of belonging.
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And then the diversity will generally happen because of just what happens naturally organically. And I can leave it there. Alison: Very well said. And you're so right that in any new area that we're pursuing as individuals,
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you just expect that there's going to be mistakes along the way. This topic can come with some intimidation. So to acknowledge that we're all going to make mistakes, no matter how well versed we are,
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we, it's inevitable that we'll have some missteps along the way. And let's be understanding of ourselves and each other when that happens. And let's use it as a learning opportunity. So incredibly well said.
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Patrick, I know this is a passion for yours as well. So how would you answer the question? Patrick: Yeah, so in terms of what market is going to do to take that first step, for me, it's it's around,
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it's about understanding what's happening around you, right? So one of the aspects that was hardly enlightening for me is looking at a shift in demographics in Canada.
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So if you look at the 2021 census data, it will be very clear to you that the groups formally, collectively known as minorities, are in fact becoming the majority in key cities.
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Toronto, Vancouver, 56 % of the population in these countries are visible minorities. Even most staggering is you look at the hubs around these cities, like the Markhams,
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the Bramptons, the Richmond BCs, 80 % of the population in those communities are visible minorities. So you may ask, okay, yeah, makes sense,
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Vancouver, Toronto. What about the Western cities? So if you look at Calgary, you look at Minton, you look at Winnipeg, they're not actually that far behind Toronto and Vancouver.
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They are 47%, like between 40 to 47%. So, you know, the demographics are changing throughout Canada, and that's going to be accelerated by the fact that we are welcoming 400,000 newcomers to Canada every year for the next few years.
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So as marketers, I feel like, you know, the first step is around having awareness in terms of how your target audience is changing, who is going to be buying your product, either your products or your clients' products in the coming years,
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and how do you connect with them in meaningful ways. So, you know, one of the aspects that, as I think about this, and I look at brands that are doing really well, when you look at IKEA,
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you look at some of the powerhouse brands in Canada, like Canadian Tire. Canadian Tire rolls out the red carpet for newcomers in mass advertising and welcomes them into the community.
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IKEA celebrates Ramadan in mass advertising to show that, hey, you know, we can play a part in your celebrations. We can add value.
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And it's providing ideas to the cultural audience, right, to make sure that their products are relevant to them. So, given the stats that I just mentioned, given, you know, that you can creatively really engage this space by showing that you have a sense of where they're coming from.
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You can connect with them. You can play a part in their lives in meaningful ways. I think that's where success will really come from, right? Even if you think about, you know, some of these showcases in Cannes,
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this year, DEI played a huge part with Apple's, you know, campaign called The Greatest, that really recognizes showcases how accessibility is built into their products.
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If you look at Vaseline and some of the work they're doing in terms of lack of diversity in images for physicians to diagnose something, something, I think those are all real challenges that brands are taking that courage step-to-step forward and say,
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yes, I think year is a challenge and year is how we can solve it. So, you know, going back to your question, as in the first step, well, is understanding how things, how the community is changing around you,
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who you target audience are and really figuring out how your brand and your client's brand can play a role in the lives of our Davos society and Davos community.
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So that's where I'll leave it. Alison: Patrick, thanks so much for sharing your experience and your expertise. It really cements the fact that being more diverse and inclusive in our approach isn't just the right thing to do.
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It's also such a smart driver of business and you can have dramatic positive business impacts at the same time that you're having dramatic positive societal impacts as well.
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So it just speaks to the importance and in large part why the three of us are as passionate as we are about bringing more diversity, equity and inclusion to the marketing profession. So as I mentioned earlier,
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we've now done our third survey, DEI survey to the Canadian marketing community. And one of the key metrics that has emerged every year in our research is that the diversity of senior leadership in an organization is fundamental to just about everything and it's fundamental in the positive impact it can have across all the important business metrics.
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Despite all of the benefits, today only 25 % of respondents felt that they had well -diversified leadership teams and that had only increased a couple of points since we first did the survey in 2020.
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So my question to both of you, given the importance of diversity, especially in senior leadership, why do you think change is taking so long and what are organizations doing to really help move the dial?
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Patrick, do you want to respond first and then Tyjondah, you can build on the comments? Patrick: Thanks, Alison, that's a great question. If I think about, you know, where we were in 2020, it's important for us to understand that prior to the pandemic,
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prior to Black Lives Matter, prior to anti -Asian hate, there was not a lot of attention that was actually being paid to whether a company's workforce was diverse or not, right? So if you think about it,
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I was part of an organization in Canada and we were supporting Pan-Asian leadership. To, at that point, prior to the pandemic, there wasn't a lot of momentum towards,
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hey, you know, who are our employees? What can we do to make our work think more inclusive? Some of the top leaders were thinking that way, but there was not a lot of action underway at that time.
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So the pandemic happened, and what it did was it brought to light some of the inequities, some of the systemic bias and the everyday challenges that the marginalized groups and those in lower social economics classes faced,
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right? It's hard to think about the pandemic now. I mean, you know, it almost feels like distant memory. But a few years in 2020, if you think about that, it's, you know,
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we saw a spike in racism, like these brutality in Black communities with Floyd's death. You know, like the elderly Asians being pushed and punched on the roads and the streets of Canada.
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Like, you know, you saw the impact of bias. You saw how the pandemic really hurt ethnic and minority groups in ways that brought to light all the systemic inequalities and injustices.
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So, you know, when you think about that, and you think of what happened, as many brands advertised their support for Black Lives Matter. And we saw the, you know,
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the backlash of advocates and society in general calling them out to say, hey, thanks for your support, but your workforce is not diverse. Your leadership is not diverse.
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Like, you know, I'm not going to call out the brand's name, but we know who they are, right? I mean, so when you think about that, you start to then see top companies really start to address that,
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really start to look into their own backyard to see, okay, are we diverse enough? Is and, you know, there is some strong momentum. Organizations are hiring and they've started positions like Chief Diversity Officer,
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which is actually not a common title that people had prior to the pandemic, right? So but we see more of that. And, you know, it's great the organizations are doing that because they're saying we need somebody to bring us together to address our own systemic issues that prevents us from hiring,
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you know, members from visible minority groups or marginalized groups. So what can we do differently? How do we bring people together? How do we start training sessions?
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How do we create mentorship programs? So if I just think about, you know, just a few years ago, three years ago, to me, that was the trigger.
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That was, you know, the issues how they came to life. That was what we needed to see to gain the momentum. So you know, to get to 25%, you know, three years out,
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I see some optimistic in general. So I see a lot of momentum building up towards a brighter future where, you know, there will be diversity at all levels of leadership in Canada and the States,
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in the not too long, you know, future. So, you know, I see what RBC is doing. I see what, you know, some of the key brands are doing. And I'm encouraged by what I'm seeing. So I look at from the standpoint is we have some great momentum,
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and we just have to ensure that we keep building on it. Alison: It's such a great perspective. And thank you for level setting that because we want to make as much progress as quickly as possible,
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we can sometimes underestimate the progress that we've already made. So I really appreciate you celebrating the fact that yes, we want to continue to improve, but we should also acknowledge that we are making advancements.
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We are furthering the important mandate. Now, Tyjondah I know you've got some great thoughts on this as well so I'd love to turn it over to you. Tyjondah: I'm one of those people that like Patrick very positive and I do see movement in this space you know sometimes when you ask certain organizations if they feel like if you ask the employees especially black employees they'll say no it's not moving fast enough and I think
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sometimes that that's just our you know it's our own personal sort of narrative on how we want to see change based on how we've been affected in corporate Canada but to the question on leadership though I think the reason why it's not moving as slowly to is it's like I mentioned earlier it's that fear and then I also think that a lot of leaders aren't being intentional so marketers especially are riding the wave like
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we're trying to be more diverse in our advertising and it's about the people that were hiring and etc etc and that's all great but in the actual jobs your day-to-day it needs to be intentional leaders need to be intentional and say I am going to hire a person of color you know for this particular role or I am going to look for a woman to fill this role because it's been historically filled by male and you could
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do this under especially here in Ontario you could do that under your Human Rights Act right um you know to have that specialized hiring so that you're not discriminating discriminating against other marginalized communities but I do think folks just are not being intentional a because they might be too scared I don't know what that looks like I don't know how to do it and I think the other thing and Patrick I'm just
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going to pick on something you said just a little bit about the EDI the chief EDI officer that you know it's not just up to that role to do the work that role will bring you the education and get you the knowledge and everything else that you need but every leader needs to look inward and say how am I impacting this work and if this is something that our organization is it's pledging to do we are pledging to be
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more equitable we are pledging to be more diverse and we're pledging to be more inclusive then each of those three things are a very big statement and every leader needs to say well what am I going to do what is my impact how am I going to hire for more diversity so that we can increase that pipeline so we'll see those numbers the next time we survey grow even more we need to have the pipeline to choose from and
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if our marketing organizations aren't going out there to tap people about our industry to see all the different things that we're doing then we'll never have that pipeline and we'll never have people to promote so it kind of takes all of us in this work to sort of do our part to make this move along further it's not to the EDI person it is not up to the CEO it's up to all of us to play a part in player role to
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be intentional to make sure that we move along a little further because it is kind of slow I get that it's a journey but I mean we just celebrated last Monday the 60th anniversary of Martin Luther King's speech on his march on on Washington 60 years and that's too long we should be a little bit more we should be faster along truth and reconciliation even when you think about it I think there's something like only
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four acts four of the actions that's been done that our prime minister had said here in Canada four out of all of the acts under truth and reconciliation come on folks we can move a little faster and that's been since I think 2013 or 2015 come on so sorry that came from a very passionate place Alison: Never apologize for your passion you're so right no matter how talented the chief diversity officer is the the CEO are one
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person two people alone cannot accomplish what we need to accomplish and when you call out the fact that every individual in an organization has an important role to play building on that idea to what degree should diversity be part of our KPIs and performance objectives because ultimately what gets measured gets focused on and hopefully achieved where would you sit on that question?
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Tyjondah: I love that question. I'm not a fan of quotas. Like I get a little scared about quotas, but you've got to measure. You have to have a target. What are you trying to do? And I think you have to ask the question, what is it that we're trying to resolve?
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What is it that we're trying to impact as an organization? Each organization has to make that decision. And then when they decide, like I'll take OLG for example, for us in our offices in Sault Ste.
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Marie, it's 82 % white that people identify. And we've got a very large population in Sault Ste. Marie that is of Indigenous population. So if we are an organization that wants to become more diverse,
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then we would set a target of say, let's increase Indigenous hires from 2 % that it is now to 3 % year over year, whatever that would be, to be intentional of trying to increase that work,
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right? So if you use targets in that way, not to just have a quota, we need 50 % black people, no. That's like, don't just pull it out of your hat, be intentional and authentic in what it is that you're trying to do.
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And then you put yourself, you put a target, you put that as part of your KPIs that you want to accomplish for the year, you talk about it. And that's part of the journey and part of it's speeding it up.
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So we do have to put those targets in place so the work could speed up. And I kind of jumped in there because it was just top of line, but Patrick, I don't know if you have anything to say. But that's my two cents. Tyjondah: For five cents because we're in inflation.
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Patrick: I 100 % agree. I think quotas are not the right thing to do. I feel like goals and aspirations are important,
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right? So I'll kind of build on what you were saying about pipeline. To me, that is the focus, right? So it's not to kick the leaders out of their seat today.
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It's to ensure that organizations are coming together, to ensure that, hey, are we supporting the you or the students with the right opportunities?
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Students of all colors, students of all classes, are we making sure that we are taking our biases out and ensuring that everybody has opportunities to participate in internships based on their interests,
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based on their education, right? So, do they have the opportunity? Do emerging leaders have the opportunity, the same opportunities to have the mentorship, to have the training,
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to have the opportunities to be in front of key leaders and beyond significant projects? So, to me, I think that's the pipeline, that is going to be so important for us to ensure that all the leaders,
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like 100 % agree, it's up to all leaders to ensure at all levels that we are all focused on making sure that there is a strong pipeline of future leaders.
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So as changes are happening, we give leaders of all communities and visible communities those opportunities to succeed. So I do believe in that, you know,
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the goals are where it plays to be because I think being measured to goals is going to be important, right? So it helps us stay focused, making sure we have stretch goals, making sure that we come up with innovative solutions to get to those goals.
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Alison: Tyjondah and Patrick, we've had such a great discussion and I know we're just getting started. I really appreciate the terrific and very personal and hands-on learning that you've provided to our listeners and I want to continue the conversation with the follow -up podcast.
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So please tune in to part two with Tyondah Kerr, the Director of Social Responsibility at OLG and Patrick Bhang, the Director of Retail Merchandising for RBC.
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They're also both on our CMA Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Committee. We're going to come back for a follow-up episode to share more learning on how we, as a marketing profession,
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can further advance DEI within our community. Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA .ca and sign up for your free My CMA account.
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